Curse

Commander Kanen · Feb 03, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Yes i totally agree with you right there !

Paragon's are the NF versions of a Rit.

Rits are powerfull damage dealers with spirit spam builds. Paragons not so much.
Rits make great healers with good condi removal and party heals. Motivation sucks.
Rits can offer both of the above (or less on damage more on support im talking skills like splinter weapon or other helpfull spirits) with the same build, Paragons pretty much have to choose one or the other most of the time, you only have maybe 2 free slots on your bar after loading imbagon and they pretty much go on spear attacks.

Commander Kanen · Feb 04, 2010, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Now with all that said, Everyone can agree Motivation sucks, And some Leadership skills need a rework.
So lets discuss a fiew skills that could be changed without "OMG that skill is so IMBA !!! QQ"

Song of Restoration: Change to a shout, All Party Members in earshot are healed for xx -110 HP 20 en 10 cooldown. (in a 8 group this will cost you roughly 10 energy depending on your leadership rank)

Aria of Restoration: the same with 15 recast and a lesser heal. xx - 65

Here is why....

LoD can heal for 148 in 12 seconds with the same 10 energy cost.
Heaven's Delight + Divine Healing will heal for 63 each x2 126 in 15 seonds (Double that with UA Active)

Inspirational Speech: Skill, 2-10 seconds Target ally is under the affects of Inspirational Speech and gains 0-1 energy regen and 2-10 hp a second. when this skill ends ally gains 50hp. ends premachure if a chant or shout is cast or ends on target. 10 en. 15 recast 1 cast time

Mending Refrain: For 1-10 secondsTarget Ally gains + 2-6 hp regeneration. When this echo ends target ally gains 5-50 Health. 10 en 10 recast. 1 cast time.

Purifying Finale: For 1-12 seconds target ally looses 1 Condition every 3 seconds. 5 en 15 recast. 1 cast time

Angelic Bond: Elite skill for 10 seconds damage dealt to target ally is reduced by 20 - 50%. 5 en 25 recast. 1 cast time

Angelic Protection: Skill For 10 seconds, damage and life steal received by target ally is reduced by 3 - 15, 5 en 20 recast. 1 cast time

Hasty Refrain: Shout, for 2-12 seconds target ally moves 25% faster This shout ends if they use a skill or attack, 5 adrenaline 0 recharge

Natural Temper: Skill for 2-6 seconds. you attack 25% faster. 5 en 10 recast

Hexbreaker Aria: Shout, All allys in earshot loose one hex. 10 adrenaline 2 second cast time.

Just a fiew main skills here that bugged me. What do you all think ? Remember this isnt a flaming contest its a Suggestion.

So if you think any of the skill i mentioned would work better in a different way, just say =)

Lanier · Feb 04, 2010, 03:53 AM // 03:53

I would really like to see Angelic Bond reverted to its previous behavior, except with a cost of 5 en rather than 10 en. It was an interesting skill and led to some interestingly effective builds.

I also think that when it comes to the motivation line, paragons should be given skills that would allow them to take more of an active role in healing, similar to how the rit's resto line allows them to completely take the place of the monk.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 04, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

@ commander kanen: i like how some of the paragon skill modifications you suggesting mirror monk skills. those have been extensively balanced so i can't imagine anyone having a problem with it. i don't like hasty refrain at all, its duration is too short for any shout to refresh it without going to extremes. I tried to use hasty refrain in a running build but it's pretty useless, I think the only way to refresh it reliably is to have multiple paragons shouting, and paragons don't need IMS too much anyway. If you want to make someone else run faster, Make Haste owns this completely, and Fall Back and Incoming do it for entire groups. Speaking of running skills.... how about Godspeed? Anyone use this? I wonder at the logic of a paragon skill that paragons can't actually use because they don't have enchantments. I used Godspeed on a running build with enchantments but Dwarven Stability + Dark Escape is better by far. I don't think Godspeed is used by anyone, people prefer Fall Back because it is unconditional.
re: angelic bond, angelic protection, i think the thing to consider is whether these should be heavy prot or light prot. the original angelic protection is definitely heavy prot with very long recharge, though I'm not sure why since the monk heavy prots recharge in 1 or 2 seconds. your suggestion for angelic protection reminded me of Shielding Hands which would be pretty good though a very different use for this skill. if they choose that kind of function then it should have cost and recharge similar to the monk skill. remember that the monk has divine favor and has various ways to lengthen enchantment spells so the prot monk is still going to be better at this than the paragon can be. your suggestion for mending refrain looks like a weaker version of Shadow Refuge, I like it. It's not quite as strong as shadow refuge but you can put it on other people, and it doesn't last forever anymore.

One thing that I definitely want to suggest is that all paragon skills have fairly short recharge, IMO they are meant to be spammable. If there is a problem with power level then the power of the skill should be reduced to match a quick recharge. The paragon's energy and function depend on shouting all the time, the skills depend on shouts ending all the time, and some skills depend on being affected by shouts all the time. This also makes them fairly easy to shut down, if you can prevent them from shouting for any length of time or prevent them from gaining adrenaline they are done. Simple things like Empathy or Insidious Parasite will stop the flow of energy pretty well unless your monk can remove it or heal through it.

@ Lanier: I like Angelic Bond much better in its current form, it is mass divine intervention. I think the PVE version should recharge much faster though, like every 10 or 15 seconds instead of 30. I still don't see anyone using this except in special cases, I don't see monks using Divine Intervention either so I don't think it's overpowered at all. I used Angelic Bond (old version) to get through Divinity Coast hardmode, the one where you have to defend the villagers. Balthazar's Spirit + Angelic Bond + Shielding Hands worked pretty well to save them. I'm sure a monk could have done better but it worked well enough for me. The problem is that except in special cases like this it is hard to use, you can't tell when the Angelic Bond expires on the target so you don't know when to refresh it. If you're only bonding one target it's simple but if you're trying to do more than one... good luck.

re: motivation and party-wide healing... obviously i am a paragon fan and biased, but IMO paragons can not match monks in terms of raw healing, even if they have a lot of party wide healing. Monk can use Healer's Boon + Heal Party to heal for 100+ every two seconds. Energy is something of a problem with this method, but it fixes AoE spikes. Alternatively he can use UA + divine healing + heaven's delight to heal for ~100 at a cost of 5 energy per shot. this is much more reasonable, and with a 20/20 set he can do even more than that. I use that combination along with the Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom to spam party heals frequently. Paragons can not match that because they have no way to boost their healing like the monk does, no divine favor to strengthen their single target healing, no easy way to make their skills recharge more quickly since they are not spells, and they will always need to spend time attacking or using other skills to gain adrenaline to maintain energy flow. So while a pre-nerf paragon can be pretty decent at healing, I still would not take one in a group unless there are other paragons in the group to synergize with. Despite being heavily armored they are much easier to shut down compared to the monk, and any blocking / blind / miss / anti-adrenaline / anti-shout effects kill the energy flow leaving you without a healer. I used a paragon healer to vanquish the 4-man areas of ascalon so I can attest that it does work if used properly. Was it the best choice? I don't know about that, but it was fun.

Commander Kanen · Feb 04, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Yeah. my idea's were to offer more for less without being imba.

I think command offers quite good armor style defence as it is. (you can always use the old SY builds if you dont like it through command)

I was thinking of ways to add better healing through the motivation changes.

Also the changes i have suggested to Angelic Bond and to Angelic Protection are to try and offer diredt protection (im thinking of tanks running into mobs, offer some form of UNSTRIPABLE PS like skills) These skills i have stated as Skills, not shouts or chants so they cannot be influenced by Vocal Was Sogolon or Enduring Harmony.

DigitalFear · Feb 04, 2010, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I totally agree with you, Paras need a buff in PvE.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 04, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

On the topic of Angelic Bond, I like the idea of it, but at it's current state, it sucks. In PvE, if you find yourself needing a party-wide Divine Intervention, You're already far, far past dead and skrewed.

I'd much rather it be a party wide Faithful or Watchful Intervention. It wouldn't be imba since it would end on everyone when it triggers on anyone, and it'd be a nice blanket protection.

The relationship between monk and Paragon healing is one that Anet has always been afraid of. They do not want to make paragon healing -too- good because paragons are heavily armored classes. I believe that was the reason given in dev notes way back.

While I agree with them, their current state is far too weak. They need to have a good enough potency to be good at party healing, without them over classing other skills.

A recharge reduction on a lot of motivation skills would be nice. 10 I think is a bit too low. 12-15 seems like a logical choice. I'd pick 12 (referring to those chants of course.).

There IS the option of reworking chants altogether. Right now they are shouts with a cast time. 10 energy isn't much when you're getting like.. 6 of that back immediatly. There's a few options I can see for those main motivation chants... Buff the potancy and recharge, while doing one of the following:

1. Make chants work "in the Area", and not Earshot. Earshot might as well say "all party members", because rarely do people wander outside that area. making them "In the Area" makes sense logically (chants being quieter then shouting), gives a bit of a downside to the potency, and makes paragons actually have to move around in order to effect, say, the front line. In this same respect, Adjacent is way too small. just throwing that out there. don't do it, anet XD Nearby is an option too, but I personally would think "In the Area" would make more sense. Added onto that would be the fact that, if you can't effect all your team at once, you won't gain back the maximum amount of energy from leadership.

2. raise the energy cost of those chants to, say, 15. Paragons have the downside of, from a statistical PoV, being ranged warriors. Leadership is good to the point where 5 energy skills net them energy, and 10 energy skills only cost them like.. 4 energy. ooo, scarey. 15 energy means a net loss of about 9 energy at 12 leadership. This can be gained back, probably, by just slapping GTFE on your bar, but that's good, mind you. That means no mindless spamming, and using synergies to circumvent the downside. It also means limited possibility of other classes utilizing them better then paragons themselves.

3. Add a downside to motivation chants. something like, for 5 seconds, you have -40 health. I personally don't like this, but it still came to my mind as an option.

The functionality on those way-too-specific skills need to be dealt with too. that's a different matter though. Making some of those weird Signet specific/spell specific skills more useful would be cool too. Making them perhaps an adrenaline counterpart of Ballad of Restoration would be even cooler.

I might get into more skill specific changes later though. I do like thinking on it

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 05, 2010, 05:39 PM // 17:39

There are some interesting skill change ideas in here as well:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:St._M...alance#Command

A lot of the paragon skill change ideas in there are very similar to what we have discussed here.

MasterSasori · Feb 05, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Just fix Motivation so its not complete shit in PvE.

Commander Kanen · Feb 05, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

I just read the page you posted Khomet. There is some good idea's however if it was all updated that much paragon would become imba.

iToasterHD · Feb 05, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

This might be a bit crazy, but what if Paragons could be Melee and Ranged? When focusing on party-wide protection, Paragon uses Ranged attacks that do single target damage.

But if a Paragon wanted to focus on damage, he lowers the spear and uses it as a melee. At which point AoE damage would be common place.

I never understood why people never realize Spears or Pikes are good weapons. They keep regular Swords, Axes and Hammers away from you while still hurting the enemy.

P.S. Just a thought, but perhaps ranged attacks help with casting protection shouts/chants. While melee attacks help with just damage and prevent protection shouts/chants or weakens them. Ranged shouts/chants help casters, melee shouts/chants help other melee.

Lanier · Feb 05, 2010, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

There are some interesting skill change ideas in here as well:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:St._M...alance#Command

A lot of the paragon skill change ideas in there are very similar to what we have discussed here.

Those are some interesting suggestions, though I think some of them are a little overpowered. I especially like the suggested change to signet of aggression, as i always wanted to see a non-elite version of focused anger.

There are also a couple of minor annoyances regarding Aggresive Refrain and Soldier's Fury. First, I definitely think that the cracked armor penalties for both skills should be taken away in PvE. Paragons are supposed to be a hybrid class that can both deal some damage at range and take more punishment than other professions. They shouldnt have to choose between doing damage or "tanking" damage, as they dont do either one particularly well individually. Another annoyance I would like changed is aggresive refrain. Personally, I hate having to maintain it constantly between fights. In my opinion, the energy cost should be changed to 5-10. This change wouldn't make the skill any more powerful as AR can already easily be maintained, but it would make playing paragons a lot less tedious.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 05, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Kanen

I just read the page you posted Khomet. There is some good idea's however if it was all updated that much paragon would become imba.

yeah, maybe... or maybe not. The "imba" in Imbagon comes from PvE skills after all, not really from the paragon skills. Some of the changes suggested there were strange to me but actually kind of interesting. One of my favorite things was the change making Holy Spear into AoE holy damage... though I think I would prefer to see Holy Spear left the way it is now, and change Mighty Throw to do damage to all adjacent. A little bit like Volley.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 05, 2010, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Those are some interesting suggestions, though I think some of them are a little overpowered. I especially like the suggested change to signet of aggression, as i always wanted to see a non-elite version of focused anger.

There are also a couple of minor annoyances regarding Aggresive Refrain and Soldier's Fury. First, I definitely think that the cracked armor penalties for both skills should be taken away in PvE. Paragons are supposed to be a hybrid class that can both deal some damage at range and take more punishment than other professions. They shouldnt have to choose between doing damage or "tanking" damage, as they dont do either one particularly well individually. Another annoyance I would like changed is aggresive refrain. Personally, I hate having to maintain it constantly between fights. In my opinion, the energy cost should be changed to 5-10. This change wouldn't make the skill any more powerful as AR can already easily be maintained, but it would make playing paragons a lot less tedious.

Agreed 100% on Soldier's Fury and Aggressive Refrain, they should not hurt the paragon's armor. It's kinda sad that warriors can use their native IAS (flail for example) and become a 116+ AL armor penetrating spear turret, but a paragon trying to do the same thing (with 96-106 AL) is imba. :-\ I hope that Anet fixes this.

If I am understanding you correctly, you want to make Aggressive Refrain have a limited duration so it doesn't refresh anymore. Naturally it should cost much less in this state since it would need to be activated often instead of merely refreshed. I wonder what the point of making it cost 25 energy was though... after all, it is something that gets refreshed forever if you are going to take it, so the initial cost is pretty meaningless, you pay it once and then forget about it. This is usually done outside of battle, even in PvP... so what is the point of such a high startup cost? It serves no purpose except to annoy the player.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 05, 2010, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

This might be a bit crazy, but what if Paragons could be Melee and Ranged? When focusing on party-wide protection, Paragon uses Ranged attacks that do single target damage.

But if a Paragon wanted to focus on damage, he lowers the spear and uses it as a melee. At which point AoE damage would be common place.

I never understood why people never realize Spears or Pikes are good weapons. They keep regular Swords, Axes and Hammers away from you while still hurting the enemy.

P.S. Just a thought, but perhaps ranged attacks help with casting protection shouts/chants. While melee attacks help with just damage and prevent protection shouts/chants or weakens them. Ranged shouts/chants help casters, melee shouts/chants help other melee.

I think a lot of people are out of touch with reality, lol.
In the real world the soldiers almost always used spears and shields and usually carried shortswords as backup weapons. examples: greek hoplites, roman centurions, yari samurai. this is the main bulk of your army, and supplemented by cavalry and archers.

Spears could kill the enemy before he reached you or even take a swing, or else they could be planted to defend against cavalry. The shield defends against archers and opposing infantry. Really, people ought to pay attention to what was shown in 300.

Lanier · Feb 05, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

This is usually done outside of battle, even in PvP... so what is the point of such a high startup cost? It serves no purpose except to annoy the player.

Yea, that is the point that im trying to make. Im not saying that it shouldnt refresh (it is a refrain after all). Im just saying that the high energy cost makes upkeeping it during battle necessary, which is a very annoying downside. The skill wouldnt really be any more powerful if it were changed to costing 5 energy and this would make it so it could be used at the beginning of every battle rather than having to use TnTF upon recharge even outside of battle.

Pitt The Elder · Feb 05, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I think a lot of people are out of touch with reality, lol.

Quote:

Really, people ought to pay attention to what was shown in 300.

lol, wut? 300 was about as shockingly unrealistic as they come.

And the a melee spear, while generally a poor idea as there's no formation to fight in as 1 person, is not really any less ridiculous than a guy throwing an unlimited number of spears. That said, it would still look stupid if you could Melee with a spear.

Skyy High · Feb 06, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Kanen

Yes i totally agree with you right there !

Paragon's are the NF versions of a Rit.

Rits are powerfull damage dealers with spirit spam builds. Paragons not so much.
Rits make great healers with good condi removal and party heals. Motivation sucks.
Rits can offer both of the above (or less on damage more on support im talking skills like splinter weapon or other helpfull spirits) with the same build, Paragons pretty much have to choose one or the other most of the time, you only have maybe 2 free slots on your bar after loading imbagon and they pretty much go on spear attacks.

Well, uh, 2 spear attacks + SY! + TNTF! + Focused Anger + FGJ! + IAS + support chant or res = a whole lot of offensive and defensive power, on one bar.

Quote:

I wonder what the point of making it cost 25 energy was though... after all, it is something that gets refreshed forever if you are going to take it, so the initial cost is pretty meaningless, you pay it once and then forget about it. This is usually done outside of battle, even in PvP... so what is the point of such a high startup cost? It serves no purpose except to annoy the player.

To punish the player for letting it drop, of course. High reward (permanent, unstrippable IAS) balanced by a large penalty if you don't fulfill the condition.

Commander Kanen · Feb 06, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I dont think that 2 spear attacks are "whole lot of offensive".

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 10, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

so... after all that has been said here, I was hoping that we could get some kind of response from Anet or the Test Krewe to say something along the lines of "we're looking at it" or "we have no plans to change anything". Just curious to see if there is a possibility of getting some positive changes made?